Places to list BJJ Gear for sale in the Secondary Market & How To List, Sell & Ship Your BJJ Gear

The purpose of this blog is twofold. The first section is dedicated to answering "WHERE" you can buy/trade/sell your BJJ Gear online. Then we try and and answer the "HOW" to not only buy/trade/sell online, but protect yourself in doing so.

WHERE To Buy/Sell/Trade Online

There are a few websites and several Facebook groups that you might want to consider advertising your new or used BJJ gear (primarily kimonos) for sale. Some allow any brand or BJJ item to be sold, while others are brand specific, and some are even size focused. Most of these sites are free to join and use, but one does require a payment of some kind. The paid site is listed at the bottom of this portion of the blog.

Below is a list of the names of these sites and the links to them. This list will be updated regularly and feel free to email me (click here) and suggest others as well.

FACEBOOK

Before getting started on this list, it is important to recognize that prior to posting in any group that you read both the "About" section and any "Pinned" post. It is in one or both of these areas where the group administrators will provide the members with the guidelines for posting and behavior in the group. To fail to follow these guidelines is at your peril.

Many groups will immediately remove any post that does not meet their requirements AND banish the poster from the group. Sure, reading these will take a few minutes, but each group was set up with a different objective and you should know what that is before you start participating in the group. To post without knowing a groups guidelines for posting is considered "SPAM."

Moving on....

There are several groups on Facebook where you can post and sell your items for free. They are as follows:

BJJ Gis For Sale - Here you can list any kimono (or related items like rash guards and patches for example). It is a good group and well moderated. No trolls allowed, but they do appear from time to time. A new rule (September, 2014) requires all for sale items include an asking price. A poll of the members was taken and 90% chose this option. Enforcing this is another conversation.

BJJ & MMA Classifieds - Similar group to the above, but allows any BJJ and MMA gear while the above (BJJ Gis For Sale) really tries to keep the focus on kimonos. Also, this group is not as well moderated and you will get some trolls here. In this group you also must post an asking price on your items. No "PM me with offers" allowed.

A1 & A1L/A1T BJJ Gi Marketplace - This newer group is total focused on A1, A1L and A1T kimonos (collectively known as A1X). Well moderated and all about business. No BS or trolls allowed.

BJJ Gi Addicts Anonymous - This group has changed it's admin, personality and policies more often than a newborn gets his diaper changed. Currently they DO NOT allow posting of secondary market BJJ gear for sale, but that was not always the case. Currently they have a sister group that is specifically dedicated toward listing BJJ gis and gear for sale. It is: BJJ Gi Addicts Gi & Gear Sales.

CTRL Freaks - A group of CTRL Industries fans with posts of all things CTRL, including buying and selling CTRL items if you have or are seeking any. Well moderated and no trolls allowed. This is definitely THE group to go to for CTRL products and new drop notices. The owner of CTRL regularly posts and participates in the group.

CTRL Free Market - Trade or Sell - A small but growing group of CTRL Industries fans with a focus on sales and trades only. No other BS. Well moderated and no trolls allowed.

Shoyoroll Trade or Sell - This was the first group for Shoyoroll fans to buy/trade/sell Shoyoroll gis and gear. While there are many good people in this group, be advised that the admin not only allows but they encourage hate speech toward people who post what are (in their sole opinion) overpriced gis. So if you want to sell a rare gi that is priced over $400, you may want to avoid that group unless you are prepared to be attacked by the ShoyoTrolls.

Shoyoroll Free Market - Trade or Sell - This is a newer group (mid-November 2014) that was set up as an alternative to the aforementioned Shoyoroll Trade or Sell group (aka, ShoyoTroll Group). The original (and stated) objective of this group was to allow the members to list any Shoyoroll kimono at any price (hence "Free Market" in its name) and not have to worry about trolls or haters like in the ShoyoTroll group. However, over time the ShoyoTrolls have taken over this group as well and if you post a gi for sale and one of the Admin or their henchmen don't like the pricing, then they will delete your post(s), ban you from the group and lynch you. So beware.

As of late in 2015 they also allow gear from a few select other brands such as Shoyoroll, Illest, Want Vs Need & Moskova

Shoyoroll Drama Free Buy, Trade and Sell - This is the latest Shoyoroll-focused group, launched in November 2015 as a direct result of the other two Shoyoroll groups being taken over by the ShoyoTrolls. This group was founded on the principal of RESPECT, and is dedicated to providing a safe, professional Facebook group (and Instagram page) for the purpose of buying, trading and selling Shoyoroll gis and gear without any of the bullshit found in the other two Shoyoroll groups.

Drama Free is a zero-tolerance group that will never put up with any of the unbelievably childish, rude, abusive, immature and down right mean behavior that is prevalent in the other Shoyoroll buy/trade/sell groups.

There will be NO: Drama, Hate, Disrespect, Trolls, Negativity or Poaching allowed in Shoyoroll Drama Free EVER.

In addition, the groups admin will also post information on upcoming Shoyoroll drops so that members can easily stay on top of those as well.

And Drama Free is THE ONLY group to also have an Instagram page in which any member can have his posts from Facebook also added there as well.

There are several blog posts linked here concerning Shoyoroll Drama Free. Feel free to check them out if you desire more information.

• Details on Shoyoroll Drama Free Buy, Trade & Sell. The inspiration for it's creation as well as guidelines for group members. 

• Guidelines for posting in Drama Free

• "Bumping" Guidelines in Drama Free, and

• Shoyoroll Drama Free Instagram

FACEBOOK - LITE

There are some smaller, less frequented groups and pages on Facebook that you can check out for the listing of your BJJ gear. They include:

BJJ Kimonos For Sale

BJJ Gi Traders UK

BJJ Underworld

Only Kids BJJ Gis

MMA/BJJ Swap Shop

Martial Art Market

BJJ Buy, Trade & Sell

BJJ Addicts That Think SYR Can Eat A Fat One

A1 A0 & F Shoyoroll Trader

INTERNET

BJJ Gi Market - Now BJJ Gi Market could be a great place to post and sell your BJJ gear for many reasons, including the fact that it is not just limited to Facebook members. But it lacks attention by the owner and basic rule enforcement (such as removing old posts), so it is one of those sites that falls into the: "Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda" graveyard of good ideas that have died because of a lack of follow through and attention. And while it is free and I have bought a few items from there, I have yet to sell anything on that site.

Craigslist - This is a fantastic and FREE listing service for your local market. It has many limitations but is well worth trying if you want to offer (or find) BJJ gear locally. Just be sure to post in the proper category, which for BJJ gear would be in the For Sale group under the category Sporting Goods. Personally I've bought and sold numerous kimonos via Craigslist.

FEE BASED SITES

These are internet sites that require a fee to either list or sell gear on their pages. Most have come and gone because they can't compete with the Big Daddy...eBay. And really, if you are willing to pay their fee, eBay has some advantages.

eBay - While it is expensive, it offers worldwide exposure and a lot of flexibility in listing your BJJ gear for sale. I have had both great success and failures here. But if you want to sell something and sell it fairly quickly, say in 1 week, this is one to consider.

The fee for selling on eBay is 10% of the total, including shipping. It is expensive, but it works well and has yet to be reproduced successfully.

POSTING RECOMMENDATIONS

I have spent over 30 years in marketing and sales. And while I do not know it all I have some strong opinions that have been honed in marketing and selling over half a billion dollars in commercial real estate over that term.

So here they are: (Note, for the purpose of this information I'm going to assume you are selling a kimono. But these recommendations apply to other types of gear as well). 

In my previous business life I would call this set of recommendations: "How to set yourself up for success" in selling your kimono.

Be Honest

This is a simple philosophy but still must be said. If your kimono has wear and tear, holes, smells, stains, etc., just be honest about it in your posting. I've bought many used kimonos in various conditions and I'm fine with wear and tear. But what I'm not fine with is being under the impression that a kimono is in good condition only to receive it and find out then that it has holes, stains or smells. So to avoid having to unravel a deal, refund money, incur unnecessary shipping charges and ruin your reputation as a seller - BE HONEST.

Be Comprehensive

Don't just write, "Used A2 Vulkan For Sale." Invest the time in describing the kimonos condition as well as construction and weave. If you don't know pearl weave from gold weave or what GSM is, you can easily look it up. Spending 10 or 15 minutes or more crafting a proper and comprehensive write-up on your kimono will be well worth it. Not only in value achieved but in answering most of the questions you might otherwise get before they need to be asked. It is far better to invest the time up front and answer 90% of a buyers likely questions in your posting, than it is to have to answer the same questions over and over again from 100 different buyers.

There are some aspects to being both honest and comprehensive that should be addressed. Such as:

*** How the kimono was treated from a wash and dry perspective and if you've shrunk it more than typically occurs in kimonos (3% to 5% overall). If it has always been washed in cold water and hung to dry, then say that. And if you've washed it in hot and dried it in the dryer, thereby shrinking it quite a bit in the process, state that as well.

*** If your home is smoke free or not. I once bought a BNIB kimono that when I received it an opened the box I literally had to take several steps backward because it REEKED of cigarette smoke. That is bullshit and needs to be disclosed. I'd not have paid $350 for a stinky gi. That's for sure. It took MONTHS of hanging it up in a well ventilated area of the house for that smell to dissipate. At first I put it in my closet; and that was a mistake. The whole closet reeked within 24 hours.

Know What You Are Selling

Whether BNIB or used, you should inspect the kimono before you list it for sale. Why? Simple. So you know what you are selling. You may have bought a brand new kimono from Shoyoroll or CTRL or whoever and bought an A2. And the bag says A2 on the label. But inside, the kimono is an A2H. It happens. And better to know this BEFORE you spend all the time and trouble listing and selling your kimono than when you are preparing it to ship. 

Plus, oftentimes their are "extras" that come with a kimono from the factory but not attached to the kimono. You should know and then disclose whether or not these items are being sold with your kimono or not. A sample list of some of the common ones is as follows: 

*** CTRL kimonos come with the round chord in the pants already, but include the flat string unattached. 

*** Shoyoroll's Batch 30 "Like Cheese" and GUMA 1751 kimonos as well as CTRL's Luxe come with a patch that is unattached. Oftentimes people sell those separately and then later don't include them in the sale of the kimono. I strongly object to this practice, but to each his own. Regardless, you should disclose to the buyers if such an item does NOT come with the purchase of the kimono. Many sellers do not. 

*** I've bought BNIB kimonos and the seller does not send the matching cloth bag with the kimono. That is bogus to say the least and if that is the intent...DISCLOSE it. 

*** Shoyoroll's White Mamba comes with a small pocket to sew onto your gi if you want to have it to hold your mouthpiece. 

*** CTRL's Zarape came with a CD of music. 

*** Shoyoroll's Illest series came with a series of three stickers as well as a tee shirt. I've bought 6 or more of these kimonos BNIB, and none came with the shirts and only one came with the stickers. In NO INSTANCE was I told that these included items would not be sent to me. 

*** Shoyoroll's Ring and Count came with a piece of paper that some collectors really want. And sometimes these kimonos are resold without the paper.

These are just a few examples of ancillary items that came with a kimono from the factory that might be lost or otherwise sold. And while that is your choice, you should let people know in your listing if these items are or are not a part of the sale. It's only fair.

Provide Plenty of Photographs

For me, if I'm selling a BNIB (Brand New, In Bag) kimono, usually I don't provide many photos since I don't want to take the damn gi out of the bag and have to refold it. But I will take a picture of the gi in the bag and then 1/2 way out, just to prove that i have it and show the sizing tag. Then I'll get stock images from the manufacturer that are usually easily found online. You can't assume that a buyer knows what a kimono looks like, BNIB or otherwise.

For a USED kimono the situation is entirely different. A buyer will reasonably expect and you should provide LOTS of photographs detailing the condition of the kimono. Full front and back of the jacket and pants, and the bag. As well as close up photos of the patches and embroidery as well as ANY AND ALL wear and tear or damage that you should disclose. 

Provide Measurements

For a new kimono this is not a standard thing to do unless someone asks for the measurements. But if the kimono is USED or even just washed once, then it is pretty much necessary to provide some basic measurements because it will have shrunk up during washing and drying. And depending upon how you washed and dried it, the shrinkage could be minimal or substantial. 

I've bought used A2 kimonos of brands that I already own and when I get them they fit like A1. And I've bought an A2T that fit like A2. And I've bought an A2T where the pants were definitely A2T but the top was more A1. So learn from my mistake, and when buying a used kimono ask for measurements. And when selling a used kimono, provide the measurements and a chart. These are the two that I use and provide often.

Include A Size Chart

Each brand of kimono has a different size chart. For example I'm an A2 in Shoyoroll and CTRL, but an A3 in Atama and Scramble. And I'm a 5 in HCK. And while it is definitely a buyers responsibility to make sure he is buying the right size of kimono for him, you will make it a lot easier if you post a size chart. And if you go one step further and highlight the chart to show the size of the kimono you are selling, that's even more helpful.

Be Responsive

One of the most frustrating aspects of trying to buy a kimono is when seller do not return Facebook PM's or emails. Sometimes for days or longer. I am always stunned in disbelief when someone goes to the trouble to post their kimono for sale with photos and a good amount of details, and then simply fails to return my email inquiries. There have been cases where, days after I sent an email, the seller finally gets back to me. And by then I have already lost interest. Often buying a kimono is a knee jerk, spur of the moment decision and if you are a responsive seller then you stand a far better chance of making a deal than if you take days to get back to someone.

Pack It Properly

I've gotten kimonos in the mail that were unfolded and literally stuffed into the box. And I've gotten them where the collar was crushed down to fit into the box. And with a used kimono that is not a big deal. But for a new kimono, to open the box and see that after spending hundreds of dollars it has merely been crammed into the box with no care whatsoever, is simply disappointing to say the least.

Many people use USPS' priority mail service to ship kimonos. And most kimonos can fit easily into the USPS's medium sized box that is used for priority mail both domestically and internationally. That being said, kimonos that are A1 and smaller can easily fit in those boxes just the way they come from the factory. But A2 and above fit better if they are folded differently than received by the factory.

What I do with A2 and larger kimonos is first unfold the pants and then fold them in half twice. So they are in quarters. With the top I fold it (or unfold it if it's BNIB) just a little, so the sides and arms are folded in as per the factory. But instead of just making that last fold by folding it in half, I first fold up the skirt about 6" and then fold it in half. This will reduce the length of the kimono by 3" or so and then once you add the jacket to the pants and put them in the bag and all of that into the box, will fit perfectly.

Of course, if you want to spend a few extra dollars on shipping you can always obtain the Large Flat Rate box from USPS and use that. No extra folding required. An A5 kimono slides in easily with room to spare. Just make sure you get the LONGER Large box and not the square one.

Recently I received a kimono in the mail and the shipping box had gotten wet. What a potential disaster. The kimono was a White CTRL Luxe and the bag for the Luxe is a red velvet. Well, needless to say, the red dye of the wet bag ran. Fortunately the kimono was sealed in the original shipping plastic, so it did not get damaged in the least. The secondary white pants drawstring was not inside the bag and is now pink. If the gi was not in the shipping plastic, it would have been ruined.

Above you can see the shipping label (upper right corner) has streaked, and the USPS added their tape to keep the wet box together.

Make sure the gi is sealed in a plastic bag before you pack it.

Ship IMMEDIATELY

Once you get paid, get that kimono packed up properly and in the mail. The more time passes between when the buyer submits payment and you put the kimono on the mail, the more opportunity there is for him to change his mind. But once it's in the mail, that is a lot harder to do. Plus, it is only fair that he receive his purchase in a timely manner.

Summary

The bottom line is...as a seller you should make it as easy as possible for the buyer to buy your gear. If he has to jump through hoops and hurdles and do gymnastics to get basic information from you on the condition of the kimono or to get photographs, then it is likely he will take his money elsewhere. It is that simple. If you want his money, and you want to maximize the sales price, then you'll need to put some effort into making that happen. This is simply called: Setting yourself up for success. 

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Philosophy on why there are few available older batches of CTRL and Shoyoroll in the Secondary Market.

At some point in time Shoyoroll began to take off in popularity and a secondary market was created. That was before my time so I can't say when that happened. For CTRL however it happened between the drop of the Consigliere and Journeyman in early 2014.

Consigliere

CTRL's Consigliere, a production of 200 units, dropped on January 1st, 2014. And the drop lasted for SEVERAL DAYS. I know this because I kept checking everyday and multiple times throughout the day, fighting the urge to buy one. I kept checking with the hope that they would sell out of A2's before my willpower gave in to my desire to buy one.

And after about 3 or 4 days, they finally sold out. Unfortunately for me, one of my teammates bought both an A1 and A2 because she didn't know which would fit her best. And when they arrived, the A1 was perfect for her, so I bought the A2 from her at that time.

Journeyman

Then less than two months later, on February 21st, 2014 the CTRL Journeyman dropped. Another production of 200 kimonos. And it sold out in SECONDS. I was sitting at my laptop, refreshing the screen and when it dropped I tried to buy an A2 for me and an A3 for my buddy and DID NOT GET ANY.

So somewhere in the 52 days between January 1st and February 21st, CTRL Industries crossed over that line where only Shoyoroll had been before. A secondary market demand.

So what does that say about the older batches of both Shoyoroll and CTRL? Well it is simple.

Before February 21, 2014 for CTRL (and an unknown but earlier date for Shoyoroll), the vast majority if not ALL of their kimonos up to that point were sold to....hold onto you seat....BJJers who were actually going to ROLL in the kimono. Put them to use!!! Imagine that? What sacrilege.

This period of time where CTRL and Shoyoroll (independently from each other and at different points in time) transitioned from being desired only by active BJJers wanting to buy a new kimono to roll in, to being purchased by BJJers (or not) who were buying them to hold and resell on the secondary market for a profit, we will call the Metamorphosis.

So, assuming that statement to be true, and I have yet to hear any alternative theories, then the following would be true:

1. Batch production size would have lower prior to Metamorphosis;
2. Over 95% (if not 100%) of the kimonos sold prior to Metamorphosis were purchased with the intent to roll in them and most were, in fact rolled in. Those that remained BNIB (brand new, in bag) pre-Metamorphosis were often duplicates bought by BJJers for future use, or parents buying for their kids who have since stopped BJJ, or survived with their virginity in tact for some other, odd reason. But regardless, the original intent of 99.9% of the kimonos bought pre-Metamorphosis was to USE THEM.

The above factors being true, as is logical, would then dictate that any Shoyoroll or CTRL kimonos sold pre-Metamorphosis would now be in used condition and very few, if any, would exist BNIB (Brand New, In Bag). That being the case, they would be very rare, in demand due to the Metamorphosis, and expensive on the secondary market.

All you need to do is look for any kimono by Shoyoroll or especially CTRL that was dropped pre-Metamorphosis. Consider CTRL's Son of El for example. Take a look on eBay, BJJGiMarket, various Facebook groups where BJJ gear is sold, or even Craigslist and see how many new or even used Son of El kimonos you can find? You'd be lucky to find a handful in any given year.

Now compare that to more recent drops of kimonos, be they Shoyoroll or CTRL, that occurred post-Metamorphosis. And you'll see that because of the secondary market demand and resulting increased production it is easy to find most any of these kimonos in top condition pre-owned and even BNIB.

So there you have it. If you are holding out looking for the older batch kimonos from CTRL or Shoyoroll and will only accept BNIB, you will probably be waiting a long time to find one. If you find one at all. And you should be prepared to pay multiples of the initial offering price should you find one.

As an example, that Consigliere that I bought from my friend; well I used it only a couple of times and decided it wasn't for me. I loved the fit, feel and construction (as I do most CTRL kimonos), but it was simply too flashy for me. I let a few people know that I was planning on letting it go and despite only paying the drop price of $180 from my friend, I was offered $400 from another friend. While that is more than double the price in only a few months, that is not unusual by any stretch of the imagination.

Other examples are the Shoyoroll drops of Gray Skies II and Blue Skies at the Worlds in 2014. Those sold for under $200, but quickly shot up to as much as $800 in a matter of weeks.

My best advice for the CTRL and/or Shoyoroll fan is to be happy acquiring the new releases, and keep an eye out for those rare old batches that might pop up from time to time (and be willing to buy used ones as well). But don't stress out over it, if you get one you get one. If not, you should find solace in the new releases.

UPDATE - January 2016

The above was written over a year ago, and still holds true. But now having watched (and played) in the CTRL and Shoyoroll secondary markets for about 3 years, I would like to add the following.

CTRL Industries

In the past year or so CTRL has stepped up it's gi production in both number of drops per year and units per drop. This has enabled CTRL corporate to capitalize on the growing popularity of their brand.

As of today, the following seems to accurately represent the secondary market for CTRL gis.

• Some older batches (Gigante, Voyager, Son of El, Ground Squad) are in high demand and command high prices. Why this is the case with some of these older batches and not other older, low-production batches is beyond me. I can only attribute it to a pure supply-vs.-demand environment.

• Retail prices charged by CTRL have increased quite a bit lately, rivaling those of Shoyoroll.

• The secondary market for new drops is short lived. And here is why:

1. CTRL is making more units per batch now than before. So market demand is pretty much satisfied with the retail sale at the drop.
2. Right after the drop there are people that missed the drop for some reason (unaware, working, traveling, etc.) and want one. So these people will pay a small bump over retail, but not a big one.
3. After a week or so goes by following the drop and that second wave of demand is satisfied for the most part. As a result, the prices that people will pay goes down to near retail. Especially with CTRL increasing retail prices lately.
4. Then another a week or a few weeks goes by and WAMMO...CTRL starts leaking pictures out of the next drop. So all the CTRL fans turn their attention to that upcoming drop and forget all about the last drop.

And so the cycle continues.

UPDATE - June 2016

CTRL Industries

The above update from six months ago has maintained all year with CTRL. The short-lived secondary market after every drop is not providing much of a profit for those that have bought to resell. And even older batches (Luxe, Queen, Zarape, etc.) that dropped in the past 24 months have sporadic demand at best and have provided little profit over retail.

So for all intent and purpose, there is no Secondary Market for CTRL and I have stopped buying them (as of a year ago) to hold and sell. What this means is that once my existing inventory is exhausted I will not be able to accurately update this post because I will no longer be following CTRL Industries. It is apparent that CTRL is producing enough gis in the primary market to satisfy virtually all demand without overproducing and having to maintain an unsold inventory post-drop of any significance. This state of balance is one that most brands strive to achieve.

Despite this balance on new drops, the rare, older batches as referenced herein (Voyager, Son of El, etc.) will continue to command secondary market values several multiples of retail.

Shoyoroll

To be continued....

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Facebook Group: BJJ New Gear - About and Rules Of Conduct

Lately there has been some lively debate, some of which has turned ugly, in the BJJ New Gear group ("Group") revolving around negative comments being made about posts there. So it is time to address this issue in detail. And I'm doing so here and now.

First, we should visit some of the "About" language that describes the Group's objective. So here is the Purpose and Benefits language from the About section of the group.

PURPOSE

To give designers, manufacturers and distributors of BJJ gear, both large and small, (collectively, BJJ Brand Owners) a single place on Facebook to announce and promote their BJJ goods to the entire BJJ community.

BENEFITS

For BJJ Brand Owners – access to a LARGE group of BJJ Gear Enthusiasts to get our feedback on proposed designs, as well as promote and sell their goods. Unlike any other group on Facebook here we WANT to see what you have for sale.

For BJJ Gear Enthusiasts – to have a single single-source to locate and track virtually all of the new and upcoming BJJ gear that is both on Facebook and the Internet. 

So, if the Group's purpose is to encourage BJJ Gear Sellers to post their goods, offer us Group Discounts AND provide us with a ton of free gear on a regular basis that is given away to group members in weekly contests, wouldn't it then make sense that we treat their posts with respect? I think so, and any reasonable person would think so. Because if you (my language) piss all over their posts - then they won't want to participate with the group in the future. That is human nature, reasonable and to be expected.

Treat people nicely and with respect, and they will stick around. Treat them unfairly and with disrespect, and they'll leave. And the latter would be the death nail to our group so it will not be tolerated.

With some people I've gotten into the old "Freedom of Speech" debate. Well people, that is not how it works. YOU do not have the freedom of speech in a forum such as Facebook. The Freedom of Speech is your right to your speech to not be suppressed by THE GOVERNMENT. It does not apply here. So anyone angling from this perspective can climb down off that high horse right now.

The problem that has popped up recently is when people make ignorant, negative comments because in their opinion an item is priced to high or the style is not to their liking. Well I see items all the time that I feel are overpriced. And I also see items that are not to my taste and I would not wear if it were given to me for free. But what good does it do and who does it benefit for me to make a negative comment in those instances? It does not do ANY good or benefit ANYONE. If I did that it would just show my ignorant opinion. And we all have those. We just should know better than to post them all over the place on Facebook.

HOWEVER, if you have had personal experience with an item that is posted THEN providing constructive criticism that would benefit other members of the Group is not only allowed it is ENCOURAGED.

That is the difference. Before you comment negatively you need to think WHO WOULD MY COMMENT BENEFIT? Because if it is just an ignorant opinion, that is not only unacceptable, it will be deleted and if you do it too much you will be banned for good from the group.

And if you do not like that....you don't have to be a member. It's that simple.

So stop and think before you make a negative comment. Ask yourself: "Who will benefit from my comment?" And if the answer is "no one," then don't post it and move on.

The basic philosophy is well expressed in this graphic:

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Tagging Your Friends in the BJJ New Gear Group

Thank you.

I sent you the link to this blog post because you tagged someone in BJJ New Gear who is not a member of the Group, and therefore cannot see your tag. So this will help you understand both why that is and how to fix it.

Let us first start off with understanding what types of groups there are in Facebook. The options are as follows:

** OPEN Groups

** CLOSED Groups

** SECRET Groups


In an Open Group anyone can see who the members are, what members post as well as all of their comments. When I set up BJJ New Gear I didn't like that option for many reasons including having our members' friends inundated by all the posts and comments in this focused and specialized group.

So I chose to make BJJ New Gear a CLOSED Group.

In a Closed Group your friends that are not members can not see anything that you post or comment on. And that includes your tags of them. All too often I see members tag friends for gear offerings in BJJ New Gear and those tags appear (to me) as "grayed out" and unlinked to their profile. That means that the person tagged: (a) is not a member of the Group, and (b) will not be notified of and can not see your tag.

So.....

When that happens, to correct it so that they can SEE your tag of them you just need to add them to the Group. It is that simple. As a "friend" of theirs on Facebook it is easy to add people to the group, and I'll give you some instructions below from both an iPhone (what I have) and via PC.

Thanks.

p.s. While the tags of non-members appear to me, when viewing via PC, as "grayed out," that is not the case when you view Facebook from your iPhone, Droid or other smart phone. Sad to say. So, because the infrastructure of Facebook is more robust via PC, I strongly suggest you, from time to time, check the Group and your comments and tags via PC.

ADDING Your Friends To BJJ New Gear

From a PC it is very simple:

Go to https://www.facebook.com/groups/BJJNewAndUpcomingGear/members/ and click on: "Add People."

A small window will pop up and you just start typing the name of your friend. Autofill will offer options, pick the correct person and click: Add.

That is it. Add all of your BJJ Friends.

From your iPhone:

Go to the group (BJJ New Gear)

Click on "Add Members"

Scroll down your friends list and select the friends you want to add.

Click "Done."

Simple.

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A Forger in Pakistan to Avoid

Because of my activities as the founder/main admin for the BJJ New Gear page and group on Facebook, I get inquiries from manufacturers all the time. And I mean ALL THE TIME. Some want to just post in the group (which I really do not allow), and others want me to buy and/or promote some of their products. 

What disturbs me most is that many offer to make Shoyoroll gi's for me. It is often a struggle to get the truth out of them as to whether they are making authentic or forged kimonos, but I know the answer regardless. I'm just trying to get them to admit it. And if I can, find out who their "clients" are who are having these made and then selling them on the black market. 

Here is a recent conversation with one of them. You make up your mind on this particular company as to whether or not to do business with them. I know that I will not. 

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Advice From A Trademark & Copyright Attorney & My Own Personal Experience

In the year or so since I started the BJJ New & Upcoming Gear Opportunities group (and sister page) in the Fall of 2013 on Facebook (BJJ New Gear for short), I have noticed a startling number of what can only be described as trademark, copyright and wordmark infringements by scores of people making BJJ clothing and gear.

Now some of these are just the "Average Joe" BJJers who want to make and sell a shirt with Helio Gracie's image on it to a few friends and fans. And there are LOTS of those people doing exactly that. But some are established Brand Owners (names withheld to protect the guilty) who are not only risking their reputation by illegally using someone else's intellectual property, but also risk substantial amounts of money should they be sued by the owner of said intellectual property. And even if they do not lose, the attorney costs alone will run into the tens of thousands of dollars if not substantially more. And how many tee shirts with Helio's face on it do you need to sell to net $10,000 or $20,000 that you'll need to spend on legal fees?

That being said, I do NOT have a formal legal education, but in my capacity as a high-end commercial real estate broker for over two decades I have dealt with attorneys from all walks of life. From the small mom & pop, one man shop attorney to attorneys for Fortune 100 companies, and everyone in between. So while my legal training is neither scholastic nor formal, it is real life. And when I don't know the answer, I do know where to go and find the answer as I did recently for one major Brand Owner whom I was concerned for. And here is what I found out:

I wrote to and spoke on the telephone at length with a trademark attorney that I know. And in summary he said the following:

For items, such as clothing, that will have either a photograph or artwork you will need two permissions.

The first permission is from the photographer or artist who owns the copyright (or rights to) the photograph or artwork. He took the photograph or painted the painting, as the case may be, and as such he owns it. It's that simple.

The second permission you will need is from the subject person or their estate (if they are deceased) because he (or she) owns the Right of Publicity to their image and name. In a deceased persons case that Right of Publicity will be owned by his (or her) estate for 75 years after death. Then after 75 years it is available for anyone to use.

So NO you can't make a shirt or rash guard with the photo or drawing or painting or anything with Helio, Rickson, Bruce Lee or anyone living or dead (unless they have been dead since before 1940) without that persons permission or the permission of the dead persons estate. It is that simple.

Recently one friend purchased the rights to some artwork of a famous person to put on a shirt. And because he had bought the rights to that artwork from the artist himself, my friend thought he was good to go with making and selling hundreds of shirts with that artists digitized image on it. Nope. That might seem like a logical assumption, but look at it this way. Do you think that if I drew you a beautiful line drawing of  Donald Trump on it and you made a shirt using that artwork that Mr. Trump would be okay with it? Hell no. And you'd definitely get sued. The Donald protects his Trump brand with a vengeance. I know this first hand having dealt with his people in New York before.

The estates of Elvis and Marilyn Monroe and many others have full time staff just searching the internet for people infringing on their intellectual property and simply suing them. They protect what they own and don't take any prisoners in the process. You will end up far worse off financially if you infringe on the ownership rights of their intellectual property than if you had never gotten out of bed for the past six months.


Then there are the huge corporations like DC Comics, Lucas Films and Disney who own the rights to Superman, Batman, Star Wars, etc. And let me ask you this. Have you ever seen a "Superman" gi? A Batman or Dark Knight gi? A Yoda on the size tag of a major brands gi? You have? Well me too. And personally I do not care. But if DC Comics or Lucas Films or Disney ever sees these, beleive me they will care and they will do something about it.

Some will argue: well the Superman "logo" on the gi does not look EXACTLY like the real Superman logo. The difference is more than 10% so it's okay. Having heard that several times before I asked my trademark attorney that exact question, and his reply is simple. He said: Those types of beliefs are all old wives tales. They do not exist and do not apply. The ONLY judge as to whether or not an item is infringing on a trademark, copyright or wordmark is either a jury of your peers, or a judge in court. And even if you are found "not guilty," again let me ask how much money are you prepared to spend defending yourself in court against the likes of Lucas, Disney and DC Comics? Forget tens of thousands now. It'll be hundreds of thousands. And for all but the largest BJJ Brands, that is a death sentence.

I have several friends that own BJJ gear companies and one of them became involved in just this EXACT type of situation. Unknowingly he infringed on the trademark and wordmark of a very well known company. And like so many other large companies they have a team of in house lawyers and staff that spend their days scouring the internet seeking out those who would use their intellectual owned property for self profit. And low and behold my friend had done just that.

** Now, did he knowingly do this? I don't think so. I truly don't think he even knew what a wordmark was before this happened.

** But SHOULD he have known? Yes, no question.

** DID he do it? Sure, there was no denying it. It was a obvious as if he had taken the design from their website and put it on his gear without even photoshopping it first to make it look a little different. The pattern, colorways, name, etc., were all blatant and obvious infringements.

So what happened?

He received a cease and desist letter from legal counsel. And a settlement was offered by the plaintiff that would have sucked out any and all profit that he had made in the sale of this gear. But fortunately he is a small brand owner with no real assets to his name or the companys name. So with some help he was able to convince the plaintiff that if he destroyed all remaining inventory, provided the name and contact information of the manufacturer (in Pakistan), and promised to never infringe on their trademarks again, they would drop the claim. And do so for only several thousand dollars in restitution.

Well, we ultimately were able to negotiate that restitution payment down to zero and everyone was satisfied. Fortunately for my friend he came to me and asked for help. So together we were able to make this go away with very little pain. Now don't get me wrong, I've got a good 12 to 16 hours of time into reading all the correspondence and writing replies. Fortunately my time is not $350 an hour or more like most attorneys. I do it for free for my friends who need help. No issue, no questions. Let's just make this go away. And we did. But don't do it again. Please.


Anyway, I know this kinda thing goes on a lot, and for some people the risk is worth it (if they are even aware of the risk), but as Jiu Jitsu becomes more mainstream and more visible the chances of being tapped on the shoulder by an attorney representing a plaintiff becomes more and more likely.

I just had to say this once again and a final time because I am seeing this more and more often. It's only a matter of time in my opinion before what happened to my friend happens to one of the bigger brands and it isn't settled, it goes to court. And then all eyes will be on BJJ and there will be no place for anyone to hide.

In Google Images....when I type the following searches I get the following results:

Superman jiu jitsu kimono
The first image that pulls up is this:

Batman jiu jitsu kimono

The second image that shows up is this:

Yoda jiu jitsu kimono

On the first page is this item: Notice the size tag.

 

So you decide for yourself. If you had tens of millions or even billions of dollars invested in trademarks that you owned, such as Superman, Batman or Star Wars (and characters), would you simply allow these to slip by without being challenged? 

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Advice on purchasing a USED kimono

Like me do you often debate on whether to purchase a used kimono or a new one? Well I have discovered that I actually prefer buying a used kimono to roll in than I do a new one. Part of that feeling is driven by my phobia against popping the cherry of a virgin gi, and part of it is driven by the financial savings that can be had in buying used vs. new (or BNIB).

For example, I have sold a BNIB Batch 17 GUMA Shoyoroll Competitor gi in A2 for nearly $500 + shipping. And the same gi that I have in my rotation I bought used but in excellent condition for well under $200. I think it was about $150 or so actually. So that means I could purchase nearly three used kimonos for the price of one new one. At least using those figures. The difference isn't usually that great, maybe more like 30% or 40%, but still if you are going to use the gi anyway...why not buy a used one that's in excellent shape and save a few dollars? 

That being said there are aspects to purchasing a used kimono that you need to be aware of. And some of these apply to buying a new gi also. But the focus here and now is on acquiring a USED kimono, so let us begin.

Get Photographs

Several photos of a used gi will tell you quite a bit. If it is an authentic or fake for one (there are many fakes being sold these days). Photos will also show you the fading and overall condition. If you have specific concerns based upon statements made by the seller, ask for photos of those areas. 

Get Measurements

Ask the seller to provide you with some basic measurements that you can then use to compare to the same measurements of a kimono that is in your current rotation. Use the guidelines below and even send these images (or images like these) to the seller so that you are both on the same page and ultimately know how his gi will fit you in comparison to one that you already have at home. One advantage to buying used is the shrinkage has already occurred and is likely locked in already. 

Ask Questions

If you are allergic to pets or cigarettes you should ask if the kimono has been kept in a pet free and/or smoke free home. I once bought a BNIB Shoyoroll off of eBay. And when it arrived and I opened the box I had to take a step back. It REEKED of cigarettes. So I had to hang it up in a well ventilated area of my home for THREE MONTHS before the smell dissipated enough where I could move it to my new gi storage area. 

Even if you have photographs, you never know what you might not be shown and what is hidden. So ask about shrinkage, damage, fraying of seam tape, holes, rips, patches that have been removed, smells, etc. And get the answers before you send your money.

Also ask if the kimono comes with the gi bag and/or other items that originally were sold with the gi. Sometimes with used kimonos (and even new) those items are sold off by the owner separately to subsidize the initial purchase. The cigarette gi mentioned above was BNIB but the seller didn't send the bag with the gi. How nice. And with some kimonos they come with an unattached patch that the brand owner sold with the gi but did not apply. Shoyoroll kimonos 1751 GUMA 2012 and Batch 30 Like Cheese are notorious for being sold on the secondary market, both new and used, without the patches that originally came with the gi from Shoyoroll. So if you want that item, make sure it is a part of the deal. 

Make Payment Properly

Once you've decided to move forward with the purchase make sure to protect yourself with PayPal also. Insist that the seller send you an invoice for the kimono so that your payment is processed via their Goods & Services option, thereby affording you with some buyer protections should the kimono not be what it was represented to be. Even if you have to pay the fees or pay a few extra dollars for the kimono, doing so is well worth it. 

While you are processing and authorizing the payment of the sellers invoice make sure to click on the "add note to seller" link that appears in the last screen before you click "make payment." In that note area, which is located right below your shipping address, write in the specifics of the purchase. For example for a used kimono I would typically write the following:

Payment in full for a USED, but in excellent condition as represented by the seller in our emails of July 4, 2014, Shoyoroll Batch 30 "Like Cheese" kimono, including accompanying & matching patch and cloth gi bag, mailed to me at zip code 96734 USA.

That way if the kimono does not reflect the statements made to you by the seller, you have a stronger case with PayPal to get your money back. 

Inspect Upon Arrival

As soon as the gi arrives in the mail, take it out of the box and inspect it. Make sure it fits and is in the condition as represented by the seller. If it is, then contact him and let him know. And if it is not, contact him and discuss whatever findings you have that are different from those he represented to you. 

And if there is a problem, do not wait. If you contact him weeks or months after you received the gi and have finally gotten around to checking it out, your likelihood of recouping any monies is pretty low. 

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How to shrink your kimono

Some of you like to shrink your kimonos to a perfect fit. So if you have done it already then you probably do not need to read any further. But if you have not, here are some tips.

First you should know that even in cold water your kimono will shrink from 3% to 4% on average after the first wash alone, and then probably some more over the next few washes. Some specific kimonos will shrink more, some less. Some weaves tend to shrink more than others, some less. And some aspects of your kimono will shrink more than others. Despite what some people think, rip stop DOES shrink, sometimes more than you might expect. Also remember that while gold weave tends to shrink more than pearl weave, that is not always the case.

So what does that ^^^ say? That all gis are not alike. All brands are not alike, and all weaves are not alike. Shrinkage is inconsistent and a crap shoot at best. 

Natural shrinkage will not only vary from brand to brand, but from batch to batch. It really depends upon how the raw fabric was constructed and treated as well as the quality of the weave and weight (gsm). The bottom line is that you never know until you wash the gi. If, after trying your new gi on for the first time, you are worried about a kimono possibly shrinking too much, then don't wash it. Set it aside and monitor the groups on Facebook to see what other people are saying about it. You can also make a post in these groups yourself asking for others to comment on their experience. I suggest you avoid being the guinea pig if you can't afford to lose money on the gi should you have to sell it later because it shrunk and now does not fit.  

It is important to know that if your new kimono fits perfect or a little tight right out of the bag, that no matter what you do, it will shrink a little at least. If that is the case then it may not fit at all after you wash it and you should consider selling or trading it while it is still BNIB (Brand New, In Bag) rather than after you wash it and confirm that it does not fit. You will not only get more money for the gi by selling it BNIB, but the pool of buyers is much larger for BNIB gis than it is for used gis, even if just washed once. 

When I measure a kimono to determine shrinkage I use these 10 areas. Some will shrink more (percentage wise) than others, and those are usually measurements A and B in the Jacket, and A in the pants. Now it's not that you need to measure your kimono before and after you wash it. I'm just providing this for a reference. And when I say that a kimono will shrink 3% to 4% on average, that value is achieved by adding up the measurements of all 10 areas prior to washing, and then again after the gi has been washed and thoroughly dried. The difference of those two values divided by the initial measurement will give you your overall shrinkage. But again, unless you are going to review the gi the only real test you need to do is put it on. 

Here is one shrinkage chart that I did recently. Please note the differences in the amount of shrinkage in the ten measurements.

After having determined that you want to shrink your kimono first wash it in cold water and hang dry. Once dry you should try it on to see how it now fits. If you are lucky, the 3% to 4% shrinkage will have brought the gi down to the size you want. But if not, keep reading.

The next step would be to wash the gi a second and third time, again in cold water. As stated above gis tend to shrink for the first few washes. So before you decide to take extraordinary measures to shrink your gi, it would make sense to first see where it will shrink to naturally. 

After that if you still want to shrink it some more, then the first step is to wash it in hot water. The key here is to not use any soap (since hopefully the gi is already clean) and remove it from the washing machine after the end of wash cycle spin is completed and before the cold rinse water starts filling up the machine. 

Again, hang it dry and check the fit. 

If it still needs more shrinking, wash it again (this can be a quick cycle and doesn't matter if you wash in hot or cold) and now you need to start using your dryer. With the heat on medium (so as not to burn the gi or EVA foam inside the collar), put the damp gi in the dryer and check it after 15 minutes and then again every 5 minutes until it shrinks down to where you want it. When it reaches that point, remove it from the dryer and hang dry. 

From then on you should just wash on cold and hang dry each time and the gi should retain the same measurements.  

Some things to be careful about: 

*** Do not over shrink the gi. But if you do, wet it and then put it on and move your body around to stretch it back out while it is wet. You may need help to pull on the sleeves and pant cuffs. 

*** Do not OVER DRY your kimono in the dryer. Because if you burn it or the EVA foam collar in it...that "burnt smell" will NEVER go away. 

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A PayPal experience you must read....and an alternative to PayPal with ZERO FEES.

I have had quite a bit of experience (not all good) using PayPal lately, and wanted to share that with my friends so that you do not have to go through what I did (or potentially WORSE).

Like many of us who buy and sell gis in the secondary BJJ market, I use PayPal to both purchase (send funds) and sell (receive funds) when buying and selling gis. There really isn't much of an alternative.  

Well, like everyone else I would prefer to NOT pay any fees for the PayPal service so I was using PayPal's "Friends & Family" option to both send and receive money. I should have been using the "Goods & Services" option which is specifically designed for the buying and selling of "goods." But in using that PayPal takes a fee that ranges from around 3% to over 4% for transactions involving "foreign funds" or "new accounts."

So like so many people that I've dealt with in the sale and purchase of gis I have learned that there is not a ton of profit. Therefore every dollar saved counts. That is amplified further if you sell on eBay where they take 10% off the top PLUS they take a small fee from the shipping. Then PayPal digs in for their fee. So it is hard enough to even break even when using eBay. Hence me not using it too much anymore.

So, there I was buying and selling gis using various sources, but mainly through the BJJ groups on Facebook. And all the time using PayPal's "Friends and Family" service to send and receive funds. Then one day PayPal shut down my account for suspected money laundering. 

I could not move the money (over $10,000) from my PayPal into my bank, nor could I spend any of it. All I could do was accept more money, but only via the Goods & Services plans.

It took me TEN DAYS of gymnastics to prove that I was not laundering money. I had to provide photocopies of items like my bank statement, social security card and drivers license. I also had to dig up and provide the tracking number for EVERY GI that I had sold in the past few months. That was DOZENS of transactions. And what a pain that was. 

And yes, they did check out each one and I had to explain why a few of the items were not mailed from Honolulu (where I am) but from other areas in the country to the buyers. 

Let me tell you that was ten days of hell. 

But, what I did learn that I want to pass on to you is this little tidbit that I learned in my discussions on the telephone with a representative of PayPal.

The risk you run as a SELLER when a buyer pays you via Friends & Family is this: Buyer pays you....then you ship the gi (or gis)...buyer receives the gi(s)....then the buyer rescinds his payment to you. Paypal will not even ask you before they return the money to the buyer because he transferred the money via Friends & Family and as such no transfer of goods occurred (in Paypal's eyes). And YOU have NO recourse to get the money back and the buyer has your gi (or other goods). So, that is one hell of a risk that to me, just isn't worth it. 

As a result of all of this I no longer accept payment for goods via PayPal's Friends & Family. For any sale I generate and invoice and either I suck up the fee, I have the buyer pay the fee, or I split the fee with the buyer. I do the same when I buy goods. I will not pay for good via Friends & Family either. Sometimes the seller eats the fee, or if he balks I'll sometimes pay it or split it with him. 

There is another alternative...and that is Venmo.  Venmo is a service like PayPal but much simpler. And if you link your Venmo account to either a debit card or bank account then there IS NO FEE at all. How's that!

I've used Venmo several times and it's great. Not to mention that it literally takes 2 minutes to set up. Unlike PayPal which takes a while to set up properly.

The other downfall of PayPal, or so I'm told, is that if you generate a certain level of activity (I'm told $20,000), then they report your activity to the IRS. Now I don't know about you, but I buy and sell gis for fun and MAYBE make a small profit that is less than minimum wage. I do not need the IRS breathing down my neck to pay taxes on my profits. And this is not my business, I don't keep track of what I paid for the gis nor my expenses. So how the hell am I suppose to include my PayPal activities in my tax returns. 

It never ends......just be aware and be careful.

Update...VENMO has no buyer or seller protections either. So you better know who you are dealing with when you send money.

See this link. 

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